I think the "two notions that get us in trouble" at the end of the post are in substance spot on, but with regard to the framing of the second—"ends justify the means"—I have an observation to make, which is that ends often do justify means. Just think of criminal justice, where severe punishments are inflicted on those found to be guilty of committing serious crimes. This is in service of an important end, justice, and that end justifies the means: the harm inflicted. I think the expression, "the ends don't justify the means," has plausibility because people are thinking of material ends, and they mean to say that the pursuit of material goods doesn't justify cutting moral corners. But when the ends are themselves moral—as in the criminal justice example—the calculus changes. The moral end of justice licenses inflicting harm that would normally be highly immoral. Moral ends determine the moral status of the means! And the ends you cite are all of that kind: "welfare of the downtrodden/ our way of life/ patriotism/ social justice/ MY God’s way/ egalitarian society". You say, "all moral compasses are safely put away," but—ironically—those who do evil very often have their eyes glued to their moral compasses! No doubt, many people's moral compasses do not indicate true north. The point remains that "morality," not neglect of morals, is what justifies and indeed drives much or even most violence. Bad morals, not amorality, are the problem.
Great point about the criminal justice system but my point is of valid justification - in this case the means are the loss of rights, which is an end in itself, and justified. There is a "cruel and unusual" standard for that reason btw. Also I'm not talking about material ends. That's an easy case. But of moral ends. For example the horrors communists justified in the name of creating a "Great Society" etc.
But I see what you mean. Of course we always need means to get to any ends. But if we find ourselves facing unconscionable horrors among the means and justify them with, "you have to break eggs to make omelettes" and brush it all aside, we should question it.
Also, I agree with you that people causing the worst harms often think of themselves as "moral" - but only in the morality of their ends, not their means. That's what my poem was about. I don't think we're saying very different things but perhaps how we are framing them...
In ANY case, thank you so much for your thoughts. I will read the article you linked to. I am very curious about this subject - how do "good" people get persuaded to do bad things?
Thanks for this thoughtful piece Reena. Yes, when we “other” a group, a particular kind of person, a practice, we lose our ability to see the people involved as human. And then, unfortunately, we can do whatever we want to them much more easily. We do not see them as ourselves, and I would argue, as you do, that we do not see ourselves. It’s so important to look at our own hearts, do our own work, and to have compassion for ourselves so that we can extend it to others. Thank you!
What a great comment, Emily. You said it so well especially your last point. How much of our anger is misdirected and misplaced? Thank you for reading and sharing.
You did not mention the gentiles who saved Jews. They didn’t go along with the group think. They had morals and risked their own lives to save others. While you mention quotes about how all of us are capable of evil I respectfully disagree.
While some Nazis were disenchanted with murdering women and children, Hamas had no problem burning children alive. Evil persists today. There’s a new type of Nazi in town, they are well funded by Iran. Sigh.
Thanks for reading Carissa and your thoughtful comments. My poem and thoughts were a reaction to the specifics of this documentary. Of course there were amazing people even in those circumstances (Schindler's list was another film that affected me deeply) - as there always are - who went against groupthink. But they are always fewer as we know.
Re. the quote. I think he means that "good people" can be more easily persuaded than we/they realize... doesn't mean everyone will act on it, ofc. But given the right circumstances and tribal persuasions we are not as immune as we'd like to believe. In any case, you may not agree and that's OK.
And I fully agree about Hamas + the Iranian government (not the people).
Thank you Reena for such a well-written and timely piece.
Your poem and post so well-articulated what I have felt to be fundamental to the social deterioration we're all seeing. It hangs on the sense that we're right and they're wrong and wrong of course has to be extracted or extinguished for the betterment of humanity. But the foundation of that is all wrong. As you pointed out in the profound quote of Solzhenitsyn, evil and good have their own places in each of us. But which one do we nourish? Which one do we allow to take the reins?
The post that I published ten minutes earlier is about one incident and my own personal struggle between wisdom and cowardice - literally "when evil came to town."
I think the "two notions that get us in trouble" at the end of the post are in substance spot on, but with regard to the framing of the second—"ends justify the means"—I have an observation to make, which is that ends often do justify means. Just think of criminal justice, where severe punishments are inflicted on those found to be guilty of committing serious crimes. This is in service of an important end, justice, and that end justifies the means: the harm inflicted. I think the expression, "the ends don't justify the means," has plausibility because people are thinking of material ends, and they mean to say that the pursuit of material goods doesn't justify cutting moral corners. But when the ends are themselves moral—as in the criminal justice example—the calculus changes. The moral end of justice licenses inflicting harm that would normally be highly immoral. Moral ends determine the moral status of the means! And the ends you cite are all of that kind: "welfare of the downtrodden/ our way of life/ patriotism/ social justice/ MY God’s way/ egalitarian society". You say, "all moral compasses are safely put away," but—ironically—those who do evil very often have their eyes glued to their moral compasses! No doubt, many people's moral compasses do not indicate true north. The point remains that "morality," not neglect of morals, is what justifies and indeed drives much or even most violence. Bad morals, not amorality, are the problem.
A nice essay on this appeared in Aeon in 2015: "How Could They?", by Tage Rai. (https://aeon.co/essays/people-resort-to-violence-because-their-moral-codes-demand-it)
Thank you David for your thoughtful comment.
Great point about the criminal justice system but my point is of valid justification - in this case the means are the loss of rights, which is an end in itself, and justified. There is a "cruel and unusual" standard for that reason btw. Also I'm not talking about material ends. That's an easy case. But of moral ends. For example the horrors communists justified in the name of creating a "Great Society" etc.
But I see what you mean. Of course we always need means to get to any ends. But if we find ourselves facing unconscionable horrors among the means and justify them with, "you have to break eggs to make omelettes" and brush it all aside, we should question it.
Also, I agree with you that people causing the worst harms often think of themselves as "moral" - but only in the morality of their ends, not their means. That's what my poem was about. I don't think we're saying very different things but perhaps how we are framing them...
In ANY case, thank you so much for your thoughts. I will read the article you linked to. I am very curious about this subject - how do "good" people get persuaded to do bad things?
Thanks for this thoughtful piece Reena. Yes, when we “other” a group, a particular kind of person, a practice, we lose our ability to see the people involved as human. And then, unfortunately, we can do whatever we want to them much more easily. We do not see them as ourselves, and I would argue, as you do, that we do not see ourselves. It’s so important to look at our own hearts, do our own work, and to have compassion for ourselves so that we can extend it to others. Thank you!
What a great comment, Emily. You said it so well especially your last point. How much of our anger is misdirected and misplaced? Thank you for reading and sharing.
Yes, in my own experience, I find that it is an awful lot! Thanks again Reena.
Powerful poem.
You did not mention the gentiles who saved Jews. They didn’t go along with the group think. They had morals and risked their own lives to save others. While you mention quotes about how all of us are capable of evil I respectfully disagree.
While some Nazis were disenchanted with murdering women and children, Hamas had no problem burning children alive. Evil persists today. There’s a new type of Nazi in town, they are well funded by Iran. Sigh.
Thanks for reading Carissa and your thoughtful comments. My poem and thoughts were a reaction to the specifics of this documentary. Of course there were amazing people even in those circumstances (Schindler's list was another film that affected me deeply) - as there always are - who went against groupthink. But they are always fewer as we know.
Re. the quote. I think he means that "good people" can be more easily persuaded than we/they realize... doesn't mean everyone will act on it, ofc. But given the right circumstances and tribal persuasions we are not as immune as we'd like to believe. In any case, you may not agree and that's OK.
And I fully agree about Hamas + the Iranian government (not the people).
Ah. The missed that about the documentary. I reread. Sounds interesting.
Beautiful. Very well said, highly relevant to what’s happening in the world and most importantly, makes one do some serious introspection.
Thank you SO much dear Gurmeet! I appreciate the comment and glad you found it relevant. Perhaps we can all look for the humanity within each other...
Thank you Reena for such a well-written and timely piece.
Your poem and post so well-articulated what I have felt to be fundamental to the social deterioration we're all seeing. It hangs on the sense that we're right and they're wrong and wrong of course has to be extracted or extinguished for the betterment of humanity. But the foundation of that is all wrong. As you pointed out in the profound quote of Solzhenitsyn, evil and good have their own places in each of us. But which one do we nourish? Which one do we allow to take the reins?
The post that I published ten minutes earlier is about one incident and my own personal struggle between wisdom and cowardice - literally "when evil came to town."
Thank you so much Mark!